Posted by patriwths on May 24, 2002 at 09:55:46:
In Reply to: Dorians posted by kosta on May 24, 2002 at 05:12:21:
I'd always thought the dorians were more northerly. They are by all accounts taller, more prone to being blond, and more prone to having blue, green, or grey eyes. By what ive ever read,
I am of the opinion that the Dorians would be somewhat related to the Celts. There certainly are even today greeks who are blond or have light colored eyes. Some can be accounted for by some
small bits of mixing with occasional invaders, e.g. franks in the middle ages, but greeks in general did not intermarry with non greeks, then or now. These
features do not originate in either the Pelasgians or the Ellhnes, and it is clear that the Dorians must have had them in higher concentration. It is
reasonable to concieve that a proto-Celtic group of people sometime between maybe 1800 and 1500 BC came into the balkans. They would have encountered the illyrians
and the thracians already there, living in the high mountains in the dinaric alps and in the forests of thraki respectively, and they would have encountered the (few) descendants of the
original greeks who might have moved north from thessalia instead of south like the rest did. All in all, they
spent centuries living in that region which is now Epiros north of the passes from Arta, the northern marches of Thessalia (which was more forested and marshy then), and makedonia.
They spent most of the time on the fringes of the greek world, where they absorbed our culture, language, religion, and so on, over hundreds of years. Though for a while even into the beginning of the iron age,
there could still be a distinction between some Dorian names and greek names, this is all that remains of whatever they spoke. they adopted greek either before or after their invasion, but i think it
likely that much of the language had spread before the invasion. (also remember that given our terrain, local dialects can vary a great deal.)
An interesting question i do not know the answer to is where the Ellhnes came from. It is clear the Pelasgians are native to greece, ans specifically originated in Thessalia and spread inthe neolithic throughout
greece and some of the iislands, including Crete. However, i have read conflicting arguments for the Ellhnes coming into the
aegean world either from Ionia, in asia minor, or from the same general region, of Pindos and perhaps parts of Thessalia. The Pindos argument has been mentioned
here in a different thread, for example. The Asia minor argument points to a kinship with the hittites, who also spoke an indo-european language, and who came into that region very very early. (greek is the oldest indo-european language,
and branches off before any of the others do) In either case they came around 2200 bc and blended into the pelasgian population. They were a patriarchal society, though, which helps explain why their language dominated. Also
given that today except in the cases of some of the islands where the PElasgian blood runs still rather pure, all of us are more Ellhn than any other part.
Anyway.. the original point was that the dorians seem most likely to be related to the Celts from what ive read.
: I've been reading about the various Greek races, as a hobby of sorts. It's really quite fascinating, and since you guys are on the subject, I'll say a word or two.
: I agree, for the most part, about what was said about Mediterraneans and Alpines, but I have my own theories about the Dorians.
: The Dorians, I believe, came from the Dinaric Alps. They didn't just "move down" one day. What likely occured was the gradual expansion of population as a result of favorable living conditions. This happens all the time.
: And they weren't Nordic; they were big, Upper-Paleolithic Dinarics--the same race as modern Albanian Ghegs and Montenegrans. People like this are tall; often, but not always, broad; and of medium complexion overall. Their heads have a characteristic form: broad on top but narrowing in the lower face--like an upside-down triangle--and with a flat spot on the back. The hair is often dark and the nose big and convex.
: Many of you Greeks probably recognize this description, as some groups of Greeks still look like this. Wherever Spartans were known to have settled, you find this Dinaric type present in significant numbers.
: The Sphakiotes, a group believed to be the purest Doric representatives, are this type to a T. They, in fact, are very similar to Montenegrans in manner and custom: playing the lyra, prone to blood feuds, and generally preferring an isolated existence. Anthropologists like Coon have noted this more-than-coincidental similarity.
: Just my two cents.
: