Posted by Nikos on July 15, 2001 at 22:16:10:
In Reply to: Re: Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs posted by Elizabeth on July 15, 2001 at 18:11:08:
Elizabeth,
"Intelligent people know that things are never that black and white."
So I guess you are not considering yourself to be intelligent. I mean you have lumped some of the countries into Western Europe, and the others into Non-Western Europe or Eastern. I think I will rephrase your statement to fit you better: Intelligent people know that things are never that west and east. You still haven't given us an example of what constitutes being European or Western European, and how Greece differs. Could you elaborate on this? I am unclear about the statements on Orthodoxy, were you trying to show us that religion still plays a role in "NON-European Greece" and this is what makes it different from "Western Europe"? Aren't all organized religions trying to ensure their existence, you know like the Vatican and the Pope? Is Italy in Western Europe........? If Greece is 100 years behind Europe, do you live in Greece because you want to be living in the past, oh no it isn't that backward Greek husband of yours with his Middle Eastern mentality is it, is he forcing you to stay? But wait you are not brainwashed like those poor muslims, why don't you leave? I agree with you that there are: "misconceptions about the "East", Islam and a lot of negative propaganda."; but I don't agree with you that: "ignorant Muslims are often brainwashed by extreme Islamic fundamentalism. " because I think this hippocritical. I wonder if it is possible that I have been brainwashed, like those poor Muslims, oh my god Elizabeth what if you have been too, which way is the right way? This is a big question Elisabeth, are you more modern if you are prancing around in a short skirt or covered in a veil? I say your more modern if I can see you shaking it in your short skirt, that way I can even have a fantasy about you when I am walking to work, and don't forget, this way men and women truly become equal. I would like to say that the good thing about Greece is that it enjoys a special position on the outskirts of Europe and the beginning of the Middle East. It has inherited much from all of the countries that surround it, but it does not compare to the influence Greece has had in shaping what I think you define as "Western Europe". Maybe we should group the Europeans into EU member states and NON-EU member states, oh but wait a minute, then Elizabeth couldn't argue that the Turkish and Greek states are similiar because Turkey isn't a member, it doesn't meet the requirement for respect of human rights, stable democratic institutions, a competitive economy, etc. One last thing, you know all those people with negative views of the east, they wouldn't happen to be those same Westerners that Greece is so far behind, because in that case, I don't think Greece should modernize to the point where they are classifying people into Western (non-muslim) and Eastern (muslim). That is what the good countries of England, France, etc., are doing, and it those same countries that are not allowing Turkey into the EU, yes Turkey has human rights problems, the army is not under civilian control, but if you talk with EU scholars they will tell you the biggest fear is the flooding of Christian Europe with 40 million muslims, making a muslim nation the second most populated EU member state. This is not modernization, this is backward, this what modern Western Europe is doing. So please again I ask you, what is Western Europe, what does it mean to be European, where does Greece differ? If it is easier for you give us one country as a model.
: >How can you compare Turkey to Greece??? Turkey >jails & kills people for petty theft of food..ya >know..hungry people!!!(gee..no MAJOR Human >Rights issues going on in this country)
: :) And I guess YOU really believe that Greece doesn't have its own very serious human rights problems? Greece may not be killing people for petty theft (I don't know if Turkey actually does that), but it has an elaborate, rich, and corrupt ecclesiastical system poisoning people's minds with fantasies about Orthodoxy, Hellenism, and the "true" Christianity. Rather than trying to move their flock beyond petty bigotries, they fan the flames of ethnic nationalism. It's one of the ugliest things I've ever seen. AND...the people are buying into it in the same way ignorant Muslims are often brainwashed by extreme Islamic fundamentalism. Two peas in a pod my friends...two peas in a pod.
: >Turkey is not exactly considered the primo >vacation spot...I think there is a good reason..
: Turkey isn't considered a prime vacation spot because of misconceptions about the "East", Islam and a lot of negative propaganda. The fact is...more and more people ARE starting to vacation in Turkey. In fact, now that Greece's currency is stablizing...tourism to Turkey is up..simply because it's cheaper.
: >I sense there is a deeper issue here with >Elizabeth...perhaps she has had a bad "man" >experience?
: Sorry to disappoint you. I'm happily married to a Greek and living in Athens. He shares my views. It's time to move beyond the tired, worn out "All Turks and/or 'Mussalmans' are blank" approach. Intelligent people know that things are never that black and white.